Last week, actress Elsje de Wijn passed away. For many Dutch theatre lovers and makers, she was a regular feature in performances on the \u2018smaller\u2019 theatre circuit. 21 years ago, in 2005, I spoke to Elsje de Wijn, Trudy de Jong and Els Ingeborg Smits about their careers, which were similar. Of them, only Trudy de Jong is still alive. <\/strong><\/em><\/p>\n\n\n\n Read below the interview I conducted with in 2005, written for the regional newspapers of the Netherlands (Associated Press Service)<\/p>\n\n\n\n \u00a0(GPD 10-2-2005) <\/strong>Trudy de Jong is going to do it. A commercial. \u201dBut made by filmmaker Andr\u00e9 van Duuren.\u201d Els Ingeborg Smits still couldn't get such a thing over her heart, but respects the decision of her friend and colleague: \"As long as you don't become a bagman like Jan Mulder.\" Elsje de Wijn is silent, as she has always been the quietest this evening.<\/p>\n\n\n\n They meet in the upstairs bar of Caf\u00e9 De Blincker, the caf\u00e9 of theatre Frascati in Amsterdam's theatre street De Nes. It is a fraught place for the three actresses who experienced their most intense evenings in this very place, deep in the 1980s. Trudy de Jong: \u201dOooo, how we laughed here too!\u201d Els Ingeborg Smits and Elsje de Wijn agree wholeheartedly: \"And we sat and rehearsed and drank and laughed and ... how hard we worked here!\"<\/p>\n\n\n\n Els: \u201dWe were always here very late, and then they closed and we were always allowed to stay here, and then Annet Malherbe would stand behind the bar. Then Sjaak, the previous owner of the Blincker, would sit in his little office gloating about whether it was all going well...\u201d Trudy: ,,But I can still see us walking around here before it opened. Making sure everything was going well. Whether the changing rooms had the right chairs.\"<\/p>\n\n\n\n Els: \u201dHow much of an attitude we had, us.\"<\/p>\n\n\n\n The walls of the upstairs bar are still papered with the posters of the plays in which they played - together or separately - at Toneelgroep Baal: Kalldewey Farce, The Ride across Lake Constance, Dybbuk, Leedvermaak. In the early 1980s, theatre flourished mainly in smaller venues like Frascati. It was also at that time that city theatres in the Netherlands specially set up smaller theatres for companies like Toneelgroep Baal, which catered to the increased desire of young audiences for smaller-scale and more involved theatre. The big companies like Publiekstheater, Toneelgroep Theater and Haagsche Comedie struggled to survive in the renewed theatre world, which had been forced into revolutionary changes by tomato-throwing drama students in 1968.<\/p>\n\n\n\n Els Ingeborg Smits (60), Elsje de Wijn (61) and Trudy de Jong (56) are the most notable actresses of the period. During the 20 years, since the early \u201970s, that the Frascati players set the tone in Dutch theatre, they featured in almost every play. With the demise of Baal and the hard times Strijards\u2019 company Art & Pro fell into, the actresses became homeless. They had lost their \u2018family\u2019.<\/p>\n\n\n\n Els Ingeborg Smits: ,,It's the tragedy of getting older. We still are, actually. Such a small club. We are still \u2018t Barre land, we are still Dood Paard, we are still Baal, and we are still Frans Strijards. We have always played, been in unsuccessful productions, also in wonderful productions, but that whole clear thing that was there in the seventies and eighties, that is no longer there. Those companies, which were working together as a family, they are no longer there.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n But more has disappeared. Theatre directors with heart for the business, for example. Elsje de Wijn: \u201dSome theatre directors are out of touch with the theatre world. They only look at how they can fill their auditoriums as easily as possible, and they do so with big names.\"<\/p>\n\n\n\n Els: \u201dYou see those theatre directors thinking: well, three ladies who seem to have been good in the past, a writer we haven't heard of very often, an unknown play, and it also seems to have something to do with Chekhov, who was that anyway?\"<\/p>\n\n\n\n They date from a time when theatre was about content. Appearance didn't really matter; it was about what you had to say. A bit of a shame, though. Els: ,,Because of TV, everyone thinks he has something to say if he can nicely imitate Michael Jackson. We looked up to the actors of the Dutch Comedy enormously.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n Elsje: \u201dThere is now a hype to see young actresses as models.\u201d Trudy: ,,There is such a Hollywood atmosphere around it. That wasn't in our time. but of course I would have loved to be in the glossies with a Gucci shoot too.\u201d Els: \"That's getting old, Trui. We were just tuttier.\"<\/p>\n\n\n\n Where have the good times gone? This bitter observation also turns out to be exactly why they are now touring together. Els Ingeborg Smits came up with the play three years ago: ,,I was walking along the beach one day in 2002 and I was \u2018puzzled\u2019 and I thought, \u2018damn, why couldn't I play The Three Sisters?\u201d But I'm already too old and I'm not famous either.\u201d Then she thought that was actually very fitting for her and her friends: \"Elsje is Olga, the quiet one. I'm Masja, the slutty one, and Trudy is Irina, the youngest. I called them up, just like that, and said: shall we do that?\"<\/p>\n\n\n\n Elsje: \u201dAnd then we also thought: OK, the three sisters. But what would have happened if they did go to Moscow?\"<\/p>\n\n\n\n Els: , \u201dAt first we asked Judith Herzberg, but she preferred to do a sequel to Leedvermaak and Rijgdraad. She couldn't stop playing the characters in those plays. On the contrary, we didn't want to play Dove, Lea and Reed.\"<\/p>\n\n\n\n Eventually they ended up with Elmer Sch\u00f6nberger, the husband of Els Ingeborg Smits. He came up with the idea of making it three actresses who had once played the three sisters, and who now wanted to flame one more time. But differently than before. Before, when every performance at Baal or Art & Pro was rehearsed on the cutting edge. Or when once, at the utterly unsuccessful tour of The Suicide Squad in 1981, they treated the audience to an evening of \u2018Playing Killer\u2019. Els: \u201dSo that you wink unnoticed and then someone drops dead.\u201d Trudy: \u201dAnd Kitty (Courbois) who really turned that into a death scene.\u201d Els: \u201dShe could handle that rather big, that Kitty.\" Elsje: , \"That was in Roosendaal, in 1981.\" Trudy: , \"But we really only did it once. After that, never again.\"<\/p>\n\n\n\n Now, with Matthijs R\u00fcmke as director, they experience a totally different rehearsal process. Els Ingeborg Smits recently spoke to Carel Alphenaar, theatre expert and dramaturge of this production: \u2018He said: \u2019You'll see that it's also good for Matthijs to work with three women with a history.\u201d And that's right. Finally, we bring something to the table.\"<\/p>\n\n\n\n Toneelschool Amsterdam, exam 1967<\/p>\n\n\n\n Played at Toneelgroep Centrum, the musical Met Man en Muis, then at Toneelgroep Baal. Then freelancer, including with Art & Pro, ro theatre, Bellevue and Het Nationale Toneel.<\/p>\n\n\n\n Toneelschool Amsterdam, exam 1969<\/p>\n\n\n\n Played with Wim Sonneveld, Het Amsterdams Toneel and Instituut Kassies. From 1972 to 1984, she was associated with Toneelgroep Baal. Then freelance. Played a.o. with Art & Pro, Nationale Toneel (Heldenplatz) and Blauwe Maandag Compagnie (Ten oorlog). Performed several remarkable duets with actor Cas Enklaar (Bas and Elze since 1997).<\/p>\n\n\n\n Toneelschool Amsterdam, Examination 1971<\/p>\n\n\n\n Played at Toneelgroep Centrum, The Rocky Horrorshow, Toneelgroep Baal and Toneelgroep Amsterdam. Then as a freelancer with Art & Pro. Since then in various productions, including The Vagina Monologues.<\/p>\n\n\n\n Company founded by director Leonard Frank. Starting in 1972 as a regular performer at Amsterdam's Shaffy theatre (Felix Meritis), it became house company of Theater Frascati in 1981. The company specialised in plays by German writers such as Peter Handke, Botho Strauss and Thomas Bernhard. In 1982, Baal staged the legendary play Leedvermaak, based on a text by Judith Herzberg, in which the Netherlands' unprocessed war past was brought to the stage for the first time. In 1988, the company was disbanded and its budget, along with that of Toneelgroep Centrum and Het Publiekstheater, was spent on founding Toneelgroep Amsterdam.<\/p>\n\n\n\n Company of playwright and director Frans Strijards. Through his specific writing style and special conception of directing, Frans Strijards had a great influence on Dutch theatre. His 1986 play \u2018Hensbergen\u2019 can be seen as the final reckoning with theatre after \u2018Action Tomato\u2019. Strijards' 1987 version of Chekhov's Cherry Garden is legendary. Art & Pro merged with Toneelgroep De Trust into the Theatercompagnie in 2000.<\/p>\n\n\n\n <\/p>","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":" ‘Zelf de zusters nooit gespeeld’ Vorige week overleed actrice Elsje de Wijn. Voor veel Nederlandse theaterliefhebbers en -makers was zij een vaste verschijning in voorstellingen in het ‘kleinere’ theatercircuit. 21 jaar geleden, in 2005, sprak ik met Elsje de Wijn, Trudy de Jong en Els Ingeborg Smits over hun carri\u00e8res, die gelijk opliepen. Van hen […]<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":4,"featured_media":0,"comment_status":"open","ping_status":"closed","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"_eb_attr":"","_themeisle_gutenberg_block_has_review":false,"_jetpack_newsletter_access":"","_jetpack_dont_email_post_to_subs":false,"_jetpack_newsletter_tier_id":0,"_jetpack_memberships_contains_paywalled_content":false,"_jetpack_feature_clip_id":0,"_jetpack_memberships_contains_paid_content":false,"activitypub_content_warning":"","activitypub_content_visibility":"","activitypub_max_image_attachments":3,"activitypub_interaction_policy_quote":"anyone","activitypub_status":"federated","wpai_meta_description":"","footnotes":"","jetpack_publicize_message":"","jetpack_publicize_feature_enabled":true,"jetpack_social_post_already_shared":false,"jetpack_social_options":{"image_generator_settings":{"template":"highway","default_image_id":0,"font":"","enabled":false},"version":2},"jetpack_post_was_ever_published":false},"categories":[11445,3,8843,4759,11687],"tags":[16496],"class_list":["post-100279","post","type-post","status-publish","format-standard","hentry","category-faits-divers","category-opinie","category-podiumkunst","category-theater-podiumkunst-2","category-donatie-gevraagd","tag-in-memoriam"],"views":1537,"jetpack_publicize_connections":[],"jetpack_featured_media_url":"","jetpack-related-posts":[{"id":125030,"url":"https:\/\/cultureelpersbureau.nl\/en\/2026\/07\/een-nieuw-bijbeltje-van-wijn\/","url_meta":{"origin":100279,"position":0},"title":"A new little Bible of Wine","author":"Erik Akkermans","date":"8 July 2026","format":false,"excerpt":"Erik Akkermans reviews Cor Wijn\u2019s book: \"It would be great if newcomers were given a copy of Wijn\u2019s little handbook to read as soon as they take up their posts. Because the first two (of the three) volumes, in particular, fulfil the objective: to provide knowledge to newcomers.\"","rel":"","context":"In "beleid"","block_context":{"text":"beleid","link":"https:\/\/cultureelpersbureau.nl\/en\/genre\/beleid\/"},"img":{"alt_text":"","src":"","width":0,"height":0},"classes":[]},{"id":106919,"url":"https:\/\/cultureelpersbureau.nl\/en\/2026\/05\/explore-the-north-brengt-hub-vol-nieuw-werk-van-onder-meer-kruidkoek-joost-oomen-naar-oerol-terschelling\/","url_meta":{"origin":100279,"position":1},"title":"Explore the North brings Hub full of new work by Kruidkoek & Joost Oomen, among others, to Oerol Terschelling","author":"Explore The North","date":"8 May 2026","format":false,"excerpt":"Space for literature on stage, Frisian language and for young (northern) makers Production house Explore the North from Leeuwarden crosses over to Terschelling with a ship full of makers showing new work and work in development within the Explore the North Hub at Oerol. From 18 to 21 June, see...","rel":"","context":"In "LITERAIR"","block_context":{"text":"LITERAIR","link":"https:\/\/cultureelpersbureau.nl\/en\/genre\/literatuur-2\/"},"img":{"alt_text":"","src":"","width":0,"height":0},"classes":[]},{"id":100477,"url":"https:\/\/cultureelpersbureau.nl\/en\/2026\/01\/vier-de-kracht-van-de-podiumkunsten-bij-zid-theater-tijdens-het-nationaal-theaterweekend-2026\/","url_meta":{"origin":100279,"position":2},"title":"Celebrate the power of the performing arts at ZID Theatre during National Theatre Weekend 2026","author":"een van onze leden","date":"21 January 2026","format":false,"excerpt":"During the National Theatre Weekend, the whole of the Netherlands gets the chance to experience the power of performing arts and discover new venues and performances. ZID Theatre in Amsterdam also traditionally joins in, presenting a rich, groundbreaking programme that fits seamlessly with ZID's mission: to make theatre in all its forms accessible to everyone. 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Surely men can be kind and good too?\" It came straight from the heart of the young mother, who had just moments earlier been gushing about how happy she was with her little girl\u2019s father. In the marquee where we, the 150 dinner guests and\u2026","rel":"","context":"In "DANS"","block_context":{"text":"DANS","link":"https:\/\/cultureelpersbureau.nl\/en\/genre\/podiumkunst\/dans\/"},"img":{"alt_text":"","src":"","width":0,"height":0},"classes":[]},{"id":88551,"url":"https:\/\/cultureelpersbureau.nl\/en\/2022\/10\/jeroen-spitzenberger-laat-new-rotterdam-jazz-orchestra-schitteren\/","url_meta":{"origin":100279,"position":4},"title":"Jeroen Spitzenberger lets New Rotterdam Jazz Orchestra shine","author":"Peter Olsthoorn","date":"30 October 2022","format":false,"excerpt":"Jeroen Spitzenberger lets the New Rotterdam Jazz Orchestra shine. This performance is so typically Rotterdam \u2013 simply excellent \u2013 thanks to the space the acclaimed actor allows to a rather unknown eleven-piece all-male orchestra. For weeks on end, we\u2019ve been enjoying watching Spitzenberger as Tim in the excellent TV series *Oogappels*, just as we do on that same NPO\u2026","rel":"","context":"In "MUZIEK"","block_context":{"text":"MUZIEK","link":"https:\/\/cultureelpersbureau.nl\/en\/genre\/podiumkunst\/muziek-podiumkunst-2\/"},"img":{"alt_text":"","src":"https:\/\/i0.wp.com\/cultureelpersbureau.nl\/wp-content\/uploads\/2022\/10\/Memento-Mori__c_Anne-van-Zantwijk-41.jpg?resize=350%2C200&ssl=1","width":350,"height":200,"srcset":"https:\/\/i0.wp.com\/cultureelpersbureau.nl\/wp-content\/uploads\/2022\/10\/Memento-Mori__c_Anne-van-Zantwijk-41.jpg?resize=350%2C200&ssl=1 1x, https:\/\/i0.wp.com\/cultureelpersbureau.nl\/wp-content\/uploads\/2022\/10\/Memento-Mori__c_Anne-van-Zantwijk-41.jpg?resize=525%2C300&ssl=1 1.5x, https:\/\/i0.wp.com\/cultureelpersbureau.nl\/wp-content\/uploads\/2022\/10\/Memento-Mori__c_Anne-van-Zantwijk-41.jpg?resize=700%2C400&ssl=1 2x, https:\/\/i0.wp.com\/cultureelpersbureau.nl\/wp-content\/uploads\/2022\/10\/Memento-Mori__c_Anne-van-Zantwijk-41.jpg?resize=1050%2C600&ssl=1 3x, https:\/\/i0.wp.com\/cultureelpersbureau.nl\/wp-content\/uploads\/2022\/10\/Memento-Mori__c_Anne-van-Zantwijk-41.jpg?resize=1400%2C800&ssl=1 4x"},"classes":[]},{"id":100578,"url":"https:\/\/cultureelpersbureau.nl\/en\/2026\/02\/zwaaien-blijven-en-weer-terugkomen-nieuwe-jeugdvoorstelling-zeg-maar-dag-is-een-poetische-muzikale-ode-aan-afscheid\/","url_meta":{"origin":100279,"position":5},"title":"WAVE, STAY AND COME BACK AGAIN: NEW YOUTH PERFORMANCE SAY HELLO IS A POETIC, MUSICAL ODE TO GOODBYE","author":"een van onze leden","date":"1 February 2026","format":false,"excerpt":"On Sunday 19 April 2026, Zeg maar dag (4+) by Maas theatre and dance will premiere at the Maaspodium in Rotterdam. In this musical and physical youth performance, creator Sara Giampaolo explores what saying goodbye and being left behind feels like. With few words and lots of movement and music, Zeg maar dag gives space to...","rel":"","context":"In "PERSBERICHTEN"","block_context":{"text":"PERSBERICHTEN","link":"https:\/\/cultureelpersbureau.nl\/en\/genre\/service\/persberichten\/"},"img":{"alt_text":"","src":"https:\/\/i0.wp.com\/cultureelpersbureau.nl\/wp-content\/uploads\/2026\/02\/HR_zeg-maar-dag-final-zonder-text-2-scaled.jpg?resize=350%2C200&ssl=1","width":350,"height":200,"srcset":"https:\/\/i0.wp.com\/cultureelpersbureau.nl\/wp-content\/uploads\/2026\/02\/HR_zeg-maar-dag-final-zonder-text-2-scaled.jpg?resize=350%2C200&ssl=1 1x, https:\/\/i0.wp.com\/cultureelpersbureau.nl\/wp-content\/uploads\/2026\/02\/HR_zeg-maar-dag-final-zonder-text-2-scaled.jpg?resize=525%2C300&ssl=1 1.5x, https:\/\/i0.wp.com\/cultureelpersbureau.nl\/wp-content\/uploads\/2026\/02\/HR_zeg-maar-dag-final-zonder-text-2-scaled.jpg?resize=700%2C400&ssl=1 2x, https:\/\/i0.wp.com\/cultureelpersbureau.nl\/wp-content\/uploads\/2026\/02\/HR_zeg-maar-dag-final-zonder-text-2-scaled.jpg?resize=1050%2C600&ssl=1 3x, https:\/\/i0.wp.com\/cultureelpersbureau.nl\/wp-content\/uploads\/2026\/02\/HR_zeg-maar-dag-final-zonder-text-2-scaled.jpg?resize=1400%2C800&ssl=1 4x"},"classes":[]}],"jetpack_shortlink":"https:\/\/wp.me\/p3yKke-q5p","jetpack_sharing_enabled":true,"_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/cultureelpersbureau.nl\/en\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/100279","targetHints":{"allow":["GET"]}}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/cultureelpersbureau.nl\/en\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/cultureelpersbureau.nl\/en\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/types\/post"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/cultureelpersbureau.nl\/en\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/users\/4"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/cultureelpersbureau.nl\/en\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/comments?post=100279"}],"version-history":[{"count":4,"href":"https:\/\/cultureelpersbureau.nl\/en\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/100279\/revisions"}],"predecessor-version":[{"id":100293,"href":"https:\/\/cultureelpersbureau.nl\/en\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/100279\/revisions\/100293"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/cultureelpersbureau.nl\/en\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media?parent=100279"}],"wp:term":[{"taxonomy":"category","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/cultureelpersbureau.nl\/en\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/categories?post=100279"},{"taxonomy":"post_tag","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/cultureelpersbureau.nl\/en\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/tags?post=100279"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}Besides \u2018To be or not to be\u2019, they are the most famous words in theatre: \u2018To Moscow, To Moscow...\u2019. The concluding words of Chkhov's classic Three Sisters are the title of a play Elmer Sch\u00f6nberger wrote for three actresses who never played the \u2018Sisters\u2019 themselves: Els Ingeborg Smits, Elsje de Wijn and Trudy de Jong.<\/h4>\n\n\n\n
To Moscow, To Moscow. Playing period: 17-02 to 26-05-05. To be seen in over 50 theatres in the Netherlands. Actor: Trudy de Jong, Elsje de Wijn, Els Ingeborg Smits. Directed by Matthijs R\u00fcmke. Text: Elmer Sch\u00f6nberger. Dramaturgy: Carel Alphenaar. Set design: Rieks Swarte. Costume design: Carly Everaert. Information: www.bostheaterproducties.nl<\/h4>\n\n\n\n
Bioots:<\/h3>\n\n\n\n
Elsje de Wijn (1944)<\/h4>\n\n\n\n
Els Ingeborg Smits (1944)<\/h4>\n\n\n\n
Trudy de Jong (1949)<\/h4>\n\n\n\n
Baal (1972 - 1986)<\/h4>\n\n\n\n
Art & Pro (1980 - 2000)<\/h4>\n\n\n\n