Joop Daalmeijer Marathon (6): 'The Rijksakademie will go to pieces if we don't intervene'

Wijbrand Schaap: 'The basic infrastructure has been geared by Zijlstrakilld while it was not yet ripe. Which, in its smaller version, now runs the risk of leading to further rigidity.'

Joop Daalmeijer: 'That's a good observation. We are also working on that in our Culture Exploration. We are having a lot of discussions, with which we are also going out into the country. We are starting in Eindhoven, going to all cities. We want to talk to the field, not only with creators, but also with consumers: what about this basic infrastructure? I think you have to look at that very carefully.'

'The minister has said she doesn't actually want to change much. She has said to us, "At least look at festivals and look at talent development." If you look at talent development, the midcareer talent development really matters. Then it's about people who have graduated and are stuck in their profession, but who are capable of much more. You also have to help those to progress.'

'But the postgraduate courses have been cut and take it from me, they will really go to pieces if the PVV, CDA and VVD scheme remains in force. They really need one and a half million euros a year in government subsidy. But they will have lost that in two years. Then they will really go broke.

'I have spoken to Joop van Caldenborgh, the board chairman of De Ateliers, and last week we spoke to the board chairman of the Rijksakademie and to Lex ter Braak of Maastricht. So we are going to emphasise that. That costs one and a half million per institution. It is no longer in there, but if talent development is the point, then that is the point we will talk about. '

Festivalisation

'Looking at festivals and festivalisation: festivals are very popular

Wijbrand Schaap: 'But festivalisation is a bit of a negative term. I can hear Geert Overdam from Festival Boulevard somewhere in my ear right now...'

Joop Daalmeijer: 'Ah, Geert. But Boulevard, for example, I think is such a festival, which has just proven itself. That's a festival that encourages experimentation. Things come about there that you don't really see at Oerol anymore. You should see if you can't somehow get a festival like this into the basic infrastructure. Or we say in our Cultural Policy Agenda to the minister: you should give the Performing Arts Fund extra space, financially, to support those festivals that have proven to do well with talent development. Which is the case with Geert.'

'But also if you look at the Festival of Early Music in Utrecht, for example: why do they now have to ask for two years, and then another for two years, or be allowed to continue? Why can't you make some more room for that? Give them four years, but immediately submit your plan for the period after that, so that we can look through! So that that can grow. Because it can only grow through certainty. If they don't have certainty, then they start programming cautiously, then they start programming more popular in the hope of getting those halls full and then the depth is gone.'

Security

'What they did this year with Habsburg in Utrecht: I am a fan of early music, but I heard things there that I have never heard before. Which were then put on stage by new, very young people. Great! But they can only do that because they have the security of not having to provide that extra income. If you could arrange that... That's what we mean by festivalisation. Although, in pop music, those festivals all run very well too. And those also change a bit in stature when RadioFil performs there too.'

'On the other hand, if you talk about basic infrastructure: an orchestra like the Metropole Orchestra, if there is not a solution for that, it will be done in two years' time. There was now money left in the public broadcaster's social plan. They got that to continue to exist, but in doing so they are eating their social plan. If you look at cultural enterprise: all those musicians in that orchestra are 'doing cultural enterprise' at their own risk. If we don't find a solution for that... I think we should also take a look at whether something like that can be done in the basic infrastructure, just change that basic infrastructure.'

Wijbrand Schaap: 'Now it sounds a bit like you are saying: that 700 million has been surrendered. That's bad, we've got the point, we've shown resilience and now give the money back so that we can continue with a full cultural life with new insights. The festivals we do in the BIS, which hold orchestras we continue to live in. For The Concertgebouw Orchestra note, despite the fact that they have hardly been cut, they still cannot cope.'

Joop Daalmeijer: 'Yes.'

Wijbrand Schaap: 'So there is a huge problem. There may have been a lot wrong in the old system, but there is a lot of fat off the bones, now that money has to go back.'

Joop Daalmeijer: 'I don't consider it proven though, whether the cut has led to cleaning. At the time, the sector was cut under pressure from some political parties. Without looking at the sector whether that was really necessary. That is quite another thing.'

Neighbour

'But I am also human in this society. I am not just someone who loves culture. I have a neighbour who is disabled. When I see what she is now losing because of the cuts, I do not a priori choose to reduce the 200 million for the arts. I also want to be able to weigh up the pros and cons. I want my neighbour to at least be put to bed at nine o'clock and not have to wait until ten o'clock before someone comes, because the sector has been cut back.'

Wijbrand Schaap: 'But 200 million cannot be used to put that neighbour to bed. The problems in the care sector are many times bigger than that.'

Joop Daalmeijer: 'Those are much bigger, but don't make it worse by taking the 200 million away from there. I wouldn't want to make that choice lightly. I am not a politician. I would rather look for other forms, but we would have to think carefully about that. Whether you want everything in that facility as well.'

'That 200 million just went off cold. There was absolutely no vision behind that. That just happened. Now you have to develop the vision: how do you make the sector strong, how do you make it connect with society, without it being cauliflower because people happen to want cauliflower now? And how do you then also keep the innovation of culture alive?'

'Then you have to start looking at that obligation to bring in so much own income. Because if you are really doing things that are experimental, and that do matter, that also affect what is authentic, if you can no longer do that because they don't meet their percentage, then you are doing wrong.'

Wijbrand Schaap: 'Is it an idea to resource that?'

Joop Daalmeijer: 'For example.'

Wijbrand Schaap: 'There are festivals that bring in 80% own income and there are clubs that just need to add money. If you say that everything in basic infrastructure has to score 15%, then you come out nicely.'

Joop Daalmeijer: 'That cannot be controlled. But you can ask yourself whether you can't use a different percentage for some institutions. If you see what Wim Pijbes of the RijksMuseum brings in in terms of his own income: that's unbelievable. Chapeau, because that man does a great job. He has a fantastic marketing department. The financial man is so-so. The Van Gogh Museum, exactly like that. You have to keep worrying about that too, because those are institutions this country can't do without.'

Free for Zeeland

'On the other hand, in Middelburg you had De Vleeshal. That was a very interesting presentation institution. The then director, who is now at De Appel, Benedetti, didn't want to charge an entrance fee, because he thought there should be no impediments to coming in there. That's a nice idea, and so he didn't meet his revenue standard. And that in a region where no government subsidy goes at all, Zeeland. Maybe you should make exceptions for that then. That this is possible in such a province, with such an idea. If you can justify it well, you can ensure that it continues to exist. Now Zeeland has nothing - 0 euro subsidy. Except a little from the municipality and maybe a little from the province. That's a great pity, because something did happen there.'

'And Benedetti did the Biennale last year, with Mark Manders. That was a fantastic exhibition. That man is also from Zeeland. The second day, when we were there, the largest work on display was bought by the MOMA from New York for three tons. Then, as a country, you do bring something that is apparently of international interest. While people had said to the Mondriaan Fund: 'you made the wrong choice for that Biennale, because you would have been better off with a photographer.'"

Joop Daalmeijer Marathon (7): 'If the knowledge is lost, so is the heritage.'