Drama about art: to do or not to do? Ivo van Hove and Sallie Harmsen think so.

At the National Theatre, 8 November 2014 Blueprint for an even better life premiered, which addresses, among other things, the position of artists in society. A theme that also featured in their recent Tasso, and in the successful The Fountainhead From Toneelgroep Amsterdam. Is the subject of 'art' back on the theatre agenda due to the changed cultural politics of recent years? Isn't 'art about art' navel-gazing? And how does the artist himself actually feel in today's society? I ask Ivo van Hove, director of The Fountainhead, and Sallie Harmsen, actress in Tasso. 'In a world without art, I would immediately hang myself.'

Ilja Leonard Pfeijffer wrote Blueprint for an even better life as a contemporary adaptation of Noël Cowards Design for living from 1932. The Nationale Toneel presented the adaptation at a meeting with Pfeijffer, director Johan Doesburg and all the participating actors. Besides being about a quadrangular relationship between three men (painter, writer and director) and a woman (photographer), the play is about how far an artist should go in following his principles and whether he should make concessions to his patron.

Ultimate artistic freedom

With that Blueprint for an even better life the second play in a short time in which the National Theatre addresses the artist-society relationship. In Tasso (adapted and directed by Theu Boermans), Johann Wolfgang von Goethe portrays the tormented artist Torquato Tasso. At the court of his benefactor, the Duke of Ferrara, he claims not only ultimate artistic freedom, but also the love of the duke's sister. He clashes with the pragmatic politician Antonio.

The Nationale Toneel deliberately chose this season's theme because it is compelling in this day and age. 'But Blueprint is not a plea for cultural subsidies,' Johan Doesburg swears. 'Pfeijffer puts to us the question: how can you keep looking at yourself in the mirror and still stay alive?'

Anti-art politics

Nevertheless, Ivo van Hove, director of Toneelgroep Amsterdam and director of The Fountainhead. A more direct plea for the arts can be heard in this play, which will be revived next year due to its success. Van Hove cherished the plan to work with this novel by Ayn Rand even before the Halbe Zijlstra era. 'The position of the arts in society is a theme of all times. But the subsidy cuts and especially the attitude in politics that has become very anti-art - art as a left-wing hobby and not something of the whole of society - have given it greater urgency.'

At The Fountainhead centres on architect Howard Roark's struggle for artistic integrity. 'But,' Van Hove stresses, 'each piece, like any book, has multiple storylines. That is the richness of a work of art. In this case, one storyline is architecture and attitudes to art. One architect wants to design uncompromisingly, another wants to listen to the client, while respecting artistry. There is also a passionate drama, a woman who gets into a relationship with both men. She feels the most kinship with the architect with the utopian mindset. True passion is also kinship in soul, in philosophy. They are distinct themes, but themes that meander through each other.'

Nerve of time

That audiences might view a play about artists as navel-gazing, Van Hove firmly rejects: 'We have The Fountainhead Played in Amsterdam, Barcelona, Avignon, Vilnius and Rotterdam. Over 20,000 people have seen it and everywhere the audience reacts in the same way. It is not art in the ivory tower, it is a universal story. In Western Europe, in recent years we have seen more right-wing-oriented governments, more liberalisation, less role for the state, society has to look after itself. That evolution raises questions: is it right, is it wrong? That is why this show is such a success. Those who come out do not talk about "I liked this and that actor so much", but whole discussions are held. Clearly, it touches a nerve of our time.'

'As a taxpayer, I believe there should be care for things of vital importance and that includes art. The subsidy cuts in recent years have not been an austerity exercise but a political act. Otherwise, culture would not have been cut by 30% instead of 7%, like all other sectors. Otherwise, our prime minister would not have stood there proudly claiming that "the cultural sector has its back to the public and is holding up its hand". Artists are put in the corner of freeloaders. That rhetoric is appalling.'

Artistically, Toneelgroep Amsterdam did not make any adjustments after the cuts. Van Hove is temporarily making up for the loss of subsidies with a new fundraising programme and through support from international partners. A different theme is planned for next season.

Chess game between principles

Sallie Harmsen (25) has been with the National Theatre in The Hague since 2013. In Tasso she played Princess Leonore, sister of the duke, loved by the artist. Now she is rehearsing for Friday By Hugo Claus. All actors from Tasso are young themselves. In doing so, were they making a play about themselves?

'Tasso for me is not about an artist. The play is a blueprint of society. Tasso is not especially the protagonist. They are art (Tasso), science (Antonio), philosophy (Princess Leonore), the light-hearted bon vivant (Eleonore), and power, money (Alfonso). A chess game takes place between those principles. I don't find that navel-gazing, but enlightening. At the end of the play, Antonio says: 'See yourself, see the other, acknowledge who you are'."

Defending art is pointless battle

'Art and politics work on a different principle. Politics and science in the Western world work from a mechanism of prediction. Art looks for the unpredictable. Ideal art, in my opinion, tries to create a fertile breeding ground from which things arise that you could never have planned. It should be concessionless. Art gives depth to life; defending art is a futile struggle. Then you try to fit it into a language that is not art's own. If art is really good, you never hear any discussion about it, but if something fails, it shouldn't really exist. But a masterpiece does not exist without failures. Take Hugo Claus. How much rubbish has he created, but also all-important things. It makes me incredibly tired and sad; it makes sense, doesn't it? In a world without art, I would immediately hang myself.'

Does Harmsen also feel herself drawn to her choice of the arts? 'I come from an environment that is quite art-loving, but from the outside, there is usually interest mostly in celebrity. An sich is that nothing. That celebrity is the result of something some people are not interested in - the (art) work!

But why is there immediate appreciation for a soap opera or sport and not for art? 'I think that's partly in our culture. We are traders. If you cross the border, it's often very different, there they are more concerned with philosophical themes. In the Netherlands, I feel happy within my creative environment, otherwise I sometimes find it a bit boring. That gives loneliness, an artist is an outcast, not appreciated like in some other countries. But that so-called misunderstanding also gives inspiration.'

Artist is not a degree

But if the misunderstanding of art is something typically Dutch, is the period-Halbe Zijlstra-that much to blame?
'I don't know. I've only been out of school for two years. I have been interested in art since childhood, but I am far from daring to call myself an artist. When do you earn that designation? Artist is not a degree. I entered the world in that period-Halbe. I support myself and the creative minds around me, but perhaps the Halbe period has had an impact on the feeling of being an outcast.'

Harmsen is therefore pleased with how The Fountainhead openly preaches for art, especially in Howard Roark's closing monologue. 'I really thought, "hey, finally it's being said."' The artist may have a certain arrogance - "I can expose something others can't" - but maybe you have to trust him in that and assume the (art) work he brings.'

The trick, filled with what needs to get out

This does not make Harmsen uncritical of art. 'Well, what is that, art? A kind of language. That you can stand by the same work of art with a complete stranger and experience the same thing and thereby come closer to each other than in a hundred conversations. It's not that everything that comes out of an artist's hands is also automatically art. Visual art is my second passion. I love drawing, but that is far from being art. If you master technique but have nothing to express, it is not art, but a kind of study. If you only have something to express but don't master the technique, it stagnates out of poverty. You have to master the "art", filled with something to express, and let that sublimate together into art. Theatre school in Maastricht was mostly technique. Now I'm in a company, and even now it's only learning. But if something has to come out later, I hope I can channel it.'

• Blueprint for an even better life will play from 4 November 2014 (www.nationaletoneel.nl/blauwdruk)
• The Fountainhead goes into reprise from 30 October to 6 November 2015 (www.tga.nl/voorstellingen/the-fountainhead)
• Sallie Harmsen will play in Friday (www.nationaletoneel.nl/vrijdag)