Calliope Tsoupaki on Mariken in the garden of lust: 'I was surprised by that 16th-century text!'

On 7 October, the first try-out of the opera goes off at Theater aan de Schie in Schiedam Mariken in the garden of delights by Calliope Tsoupaki. Sunday 11 October is the world premiere at the Royal Theatre in The Hague. At the invitation of Opera2Day, Tsoupaki immersed herself in Mariken van Nieumeghen, heroine of the miracle play of the same name published in Antwerp exactly five hundred years ago. The young Mariken makes a pact with the devil, but repents after seven years and goes to a convent. Four questions to the 'Monteverdi of the 20^e century'.

Who was Mariken van Nieumeghen?

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Mariken is a young girl growing up with her uncle near Nijmegen. He sends her to town to do some shopping, but when it gets dark she cannot return home. She knocks on the door of an aunt, who calls her a slut, after which she falls into the hands of the devil Moenen. He promises to teach her all sciences and languages in exchange for her love. Together with him she goes to Antwerp, where she leads a debauched life but also grows into a grande dame, dominating others with Moenen.

I have wondered endlessly who she is, who she might be now. What is her driving force? Mariken is not just a silly girl, she is a teenager who wants to live life and loses the plot because of that desire. She puts everything on the line. She longs for knowledge. Besides, Moenen gives her wealth, but that is not what matters to her. Fame he also gives her: 'You will be the woman of all women, the best, you will be honoured, highly praised, no other woman will ever be like you.'

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I like looking in the texts of Moenen and others at the position of women at that time, that interests me a lot. Mariken becomes a lady of standing in Antwerp. At the same time, you read 'there you go seeing all the females of life', which highlights a very different side of what a woman can be. I find that ambiguity very allegorical. The text is hugely layered, there is also a lot of criticism in it.

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What is this criticism about?

'On the position of women, society, the bourgeoisness of people. There is a lot of social criticism of the position of women, but also of the arts. Besides being a villain, Moenen is also an artistic and intelligent man, who transfers his knowledge to Mariken and teaches her about the arts. The lyrics she recites sound very topical, as if she is agitating against the cabinet's austerity measures. They have an almost banner-like force: any stupid person can destroy the arts, then you are being stupid. It's all in those 16^e century text! I was very surprised by that.'

If Moenen teaches her so much, why does Mariken leave him after seven years?

'It's waking up from the dream, you're on the stairway to heaven, but arrive somewhere, life goes on. You are not alone grande dame, you get older and realise: I've ended up in a really crazy place after all. You see your face in the mirror and think: is that me? That's my own symbolism. A room with mirrors is scary: you see yourself everywhere, but actually there is emptiness, you want to go back to the old days. You can compare it to not being allowed to look back at the past, then you become a pillar of salt. It is irreversible, suddenly Mariken sees what is really going on and understands who Moenen really is. She wants to go back to who she was, but she can't. It's not a choice in which you stay lol, which is tragic. She goes down in the end.'

How did you approach it musically?

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The story and characters are allegorical, which is why I made musical allegories. There are many double meanings, even in the music, because although the characters are archetypes, they simultaneously depict something bigger that lies behind them. Take the bad aunt. She may be someone who had wanted to be an independent woman, but became that way because circumstances prevented her from living the life she wanted. In my music, I highlight those underlying motivations.

An example of a musical allegory is the note C, do in French. I used that one very deliberately and it is very common in opera. Do is from Domine, God, but conversely also from dominatrix, the woman who whips - in Antwerp, Mariken dominates a lot of people together with Moenen. Devil is also with d. Often you have a ladder going up, like a stairway to heaven, but I have sometimes just used a scale that goes down. So there are many allegories and things that are reversed. We will be together - but they are not going to heaven, but hell

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Mariken in the Garden of Pleasures tours the country until 21 November according to this playlist.

Read here An interview with actress Hannah Hoekstra (Mariken) and Serge van Veggel (artistic director OPERA2DAY).