Fred Goessens has been dead, but is still alive. As uncompromising as ever. The most reliable actor in the Netherlands makes an interim will after twenty-two years of Toneelgroep Amsterdam. 'I had shit on everything'
This interview was published 10 years ago in TheaterMaker, the trade magazine for the theatre sector. Because Fred Goessens is now leaving ITA, the company he once joined when it was still called Toneelgroep Amsterdam, a re-posting of the interview. Because Goessens is a very special kind of actor.
Fred Goessens, born in 1953, had at least one thing going for him as a child: at his secondary school, Kees Willems walked around. A teacher with a deep love of theatre. A love he could convey. After all, at home Kees Willems had a son walking around called Jeroen, who would later go into theatre. Kees Willems taught drama at the Maastricht high school of Fred Goessens: "Nobody was interested in that, because you had to read poems there. I was the only one who liked it. He was good friends with the then director of the drama school. Every year he directed the big play at school. And then I played the lead role."
Little brat
For the rest, the whole school didn't interest Fred Goessens that much. Indeed. Goessens was a little brat. When he and a friend replaced the liqueur in an old economics teacher's cherry chocolates with green ink, he was expelled from school. At least, that was the intention. The conversation with the rector turned out differently: "I said to the man, you won't have a play at the end of the year. Pure blackmail. Then they only suspended me for three days, because otherwise there would indeed be no play. I was well aware of the position I was in."
To no avail. Some time later, he was asked to leave. Coincidentally, at the school where Goessens then went, Kees Willems was also teaching drama again.
When Willems suffered kidney failure, Fred often worked at his game teacher's home: ,,There we saw two small children running around, and one of them must have been Jeroen. A short time later, Kees Willems died. When I see Jeroen again now, I really think: Jesus, two peas in a pod his father. Those eyebrows, that furrowed characteristic head."
Burgundian
It was only natural that Goessens would go to drama school, and Fred also took it very much for granted that he would be accepted there. That he had to leave after a year was a setback: ,,I was too burgundy, they said. That was a yardstick then. But my world collapsed. It was always so obvious that I was going to drama school and that I would become an actor, and then I had to drop out and then I just didn't know anymore."
Consequently, Goessens, who grew up in a large and well-known Maastricht café, had already had a lot to contend with. When he was 17, his eldest sister died suddenly. She was 21 and went into cardiac arrest on the toilet. You don't get over that easily. The whole family fell apart. Look, you know that being born automatically means dying, but it's supposed to happen in a normal way. Old people die. When someone is gone from one day to the next, you never really get over it. That's hard, and you don't understand that. That affected my life. I still don't understand it. An illness, that's possible, but this. My fatalistic life since then is clearly the result of that. I had shit on everything."
Cançi Geraerdts
After being rejected by the Drama Academy, he wandered around for a while. He was in France, had dozens of jobs and returned after a while. A study in French and English abandoned after two months brought him to Utrecht, where he threw himself into the theatre life. Because surviving without drama proved difficult: "Through drama I had an outlet. For me, that dead sister became a reason to be there. It doesn't always have to do with death, but I could express my emotions there, which I couldn't do in everyday life. That might look like therapy, but that's more how I look at it in retrospect. I didn't choose that beforehand."
In Utrecht, it did not work
Things were happening in Utrecht in the late 1970s. He worked there with Cançi Geraerdts' company La Luna and featured frequently in the big spectacle productions organised annually by Aram Adriaanse at the time. And he performed with Theatre Group Piek in the tiny Theatre Café De Bastaard, where he became the star of Utrecht theatre first with Aram Adriaanse and later with Willibrord Keessen. That started to get noticed in Amsterdam. ,,That already started at the Bourgeois Gentilhomme (a mega spectacle in Utrecht's Geertekerk, ws.). Hans Kemna approached me there, but I didn't like the man. That Amsterdam scene, I didn't like that.'
'But nothing structural got off the ground in Utrecht. Jetta Ernst and Aram Adriaanse and Jos Groenier made those summer shows once a year. That ran like clockwork and was all spectacular, but that's where it stopped. The Blue Hall got no money, and Cançi Geraerdts didn't get a leg up either. La Luna, that could have been something. But we kept on working on benefits and that made me sick to my stomach. If Toneelgroep Amsterdam hadn't come my way, I probably would have applied elsewhere anyway. It didn't happen in Utrecht. Where have I not yet played in Utrecht? From the Dom tower to the Bastaard, to Kikker, to 't Hoogt and the cellars of the Stadsschouwburg. I was getting bored of all that. Then this came my way. I wasn't consciously looking for it, but I don't know what I would have done if this hadn't come my way."
Old Guard
Goessens starred in a rather legendary performance of Richard III, directed by Willibrord Keesen. One day, Gerardjan Rijnders and Hans Kemna were in the audience. Fred thought they had come for one of the others. ,,Little did I know. I didn't know that a merger was imminent between Centre, Baal and Public Theatre, and that they were looking for new people. Then it turned out they were coming for me. They wanted young people who came from the streets with a background other than drama school. Six or seven were hired that year and after a year they were all gone and I was left alone. But after two years I also thought: this is not for me. Really. I stood here among the greats: Pierre Bokma, Gijs de Lange, Joop Admiraal, Jacques Commandeur, and I didn't like it. Because I was only allowed to act. I wasn't even allowed to put my own buttons on my shirt, polish my own shoes. You were not allowed to do anything except learn your lines by heart and stand there. I found that very boring."
And worse: "I didn't like that social life much either. Lots of boozing, nights in De Smoeshaan, it's a world apart, everyone knew each other and I was an outsider. I wasn't having the greatest fun there."
Goddamn, no lyrics again
Still, he persevered. ''The old guard has kept me going. Joop Admiraal, Jacques Commandeur, Onno Molenkamp. They sometimes took me aside. They said: you don't have to work so hard, we also like you that way. Joop said that. And what also helped is that Gerardjan Rijnders threw me a script one day. I leafed through it, and I said: Goddamn, no lines again. Give me a decent role. And then he said: read it first. That was Lover. We played that for nine years all over the world."
Goessens himself is now part of the old guard at Toneelgroep Amsterdam and can take young people in tow: ,,You have to carve out a place for yourself in such a company. Not everyone can do that. That really is an art. There are a lot of young actors who dream of playing here, but then they play two performances here and struggle. It sounds nasty, but that will always be the case. There is a hierarchy in a company like this, however dickish it may be. There are people who play the leading role, who have to pull the cart. That won't be me. Once you know that about yourself, once you know your place, life becomes a lot easier. In every group, you have the carters, the people who come late, people with a big mouth, the vanities, and in every group there is also one of those reliable lobbies like me. That's how responsibility is divided. So you have to learn that."
Winter
Isn't that a bit too relatable? Goessens doesn't think so: ,,Let's be honest. Pierre Bokma is simply a better actor than I am. I still learn from Kesting and Derwig every day. How those guys handle text. I've never been able to do that. And yet I try to get a piece of that. Does that make me a lesser actor? My role is important. The others can't do that. It is a very social function. I fill that gap. It's not about acting. You also have to get through the winter together. And then you need me. Usually when there is shit somewhere, I jump in to sort it out."
,,I am not a Siem Vroom-like character actor, who is always and forever the policeman. Then you cannot become happy in the profession. I tell all my students: whatever role you get, you have to make something nice out of it. For yourself. After all, you have to play it fifty or sixty times. If you fail to make something enjoyable out of it, you will only walk around frustrated. You have to find your happiness yourself, and if you don't find it in this of, you have to go do something else."
Goessens has fond memories of Gerardjan Rijnders: ,,He came across as very nonchalant. We hardly ever rehearsed. If you asked Rijnders a question, he wouldn't answer. They might say he is not communicative, but he thinks: if you ask the question, you already have the answer in your head. So solve it yourself. He knows that an actor only wants to be affirmed and receive compliments. He's not going to give them those. There were very wise things behind that, behind his silence. Not many people realise that. I find that fascinating. Working with him for years and never finding out what his true motivation is."
Chilly frog
And then Rijnders left. Goessens did understand why a change was needed: ,,Rijnders at one point fell into repetition. Such a Macbeth was actually a repetition of Richard III. In terms of colour, characters, acting style. I felt that that club of people had had its best time then. Then you can get sloppy, and we went goat. That Rijnders wanted to quit, I understood. He spent two-thirds of his time in meetings. He didn't like that anymore. He wanted more freedom."
The arrival of Ivo van Hove caused unrest. Indeed, all hell broke out: ,,That man had a difficult time for the first two years. With Rijnders we were used to rehearsing for two hours and then going to the pub. With Ivo it was different. Thorough preparation. A rock-hard concept by Jan Versweyveld. And tight management. As an actor, you are spared that because everything around you is already determined. That is actually very pleasant. But it was a totally different way of working. Even within the company, everyone thought: who is this chilly frog? I did let Ivo know that. That you don't treat each other like that. He was quite shocked by that."
Naive questions
Goessens thought about leaving, at the time, yet he stayed: ''You can't change anything about the system itself, but you can do something about the way in which you do it. I didn't keep my trap shut. I pretended to be retarded. Asked naive questions, then you get clear answers. Over the years, Ivo got that right. The scepticism remained for a long time, but now we are more positive because of the good performances."
And that goes for the whole company: "Take technology. That is a hugely important pillar. If it messes up somewhere, everyone suffers. The technology now has to have the latest in the house, they have it harder than the actors. At the same time, that creates a kind of connection. You can also see that in the results. We don't mess around. Nobody procrastinates. Everything gets fixed now. And we are fantastically attuned to each other. With Rocco and his Brothers, the set is ready and we start playing. Then in one day you have rehearsed three scenes like that. That goes very smoothly. Because the set is there, and because we feel each other so well. That is a huge advantage. The problem is, though, that we have to work faster and faster and get more and more repertoire."
This is something the outside world hears more and more often: that Ivo has so little time. Goessens acknowledges that: ,,Ivo is a workaholic. I don't understand that, no one does, and I don't think he understands it himself either. Running after him is tough. Next year we will follow the German system. Then we will keep repertoire and all kinds of pieces will come back, which we can play in these new venues and tour with. We are going abroad for two months with Roman Tragedies, so then the whole ensemble will also be away for two months. And then we have to play here as well. Imagine: Rocco, Crusades and Othello back to back, then Hans Kesting is pretty much fucked. And Halina Reijn. Then you shouldn't have anything next to it for a while. Healthy life. No private life That's what they have to put up with. I think."
Death
Where that sacrifice can lead Goessens has experienced first-hand. More than a decade ago, he underwent open heart surgery. ,,That was due to a bacteria on my heart valve. It's a nasty story. Due to stress, I started picking my nose. To the point of bleeding. And then bacteria from behind my nails got into the bloodstream and so they specifically get on your heart valve. Why not in your big toe, I don't know. And so that bacteria started eating. As a result, my heart valve leaked, I had to go to hospital and have surgery. I was dead for a few hours and then I was alive again."
,,After the operation, they told me: you have to take it easy. But that's not in the nature of the beast. I can't take it easy. I did try, and there was a whole machine behind me that took into account what I could handle. How much and what rolls they gave me. The only problem is that since then I have been on blood thinners, and bruise very quickly. So I shouldn't do any hard physical things. Because then I end up back in hospital, they lose me again for a few days. That has gone wrong twice so far. So I have to unlearn what I used to do: storm onto the stage like a headless chicken. I have to."
Broken in
The surgery did change Goessens: ,,You are no longer the same. There is a clear before surgery and after surgery. They have broken into you after all. I saw a similar operation they did on me the other day on TV. That breaking open, stopping the heart: technically I was dead, and then stitching it up again. I was crying like a little kid. Gruesome. You're treated like a pig. Then you hear all these noises. I didn't know what I was going through."
And so after that, he did not want to become an old man: ''I'm a fatalist, so after that operation I did everything God had forbidden. Diving off the high springboard, seeing if that heart valve would hold up. Pour a bottle of Beerenburg into it, see if my blood could stand it. I was going to try all sorts of things. Just like with a car, when it has new valves. I also became more impatient, verging on coarse. People who don't get on the bus fast enough, I think: fuck off. Because it's not important, what they think is important. What are you pissing about that ticket, it's not important!'
Crying for dolphins
'I am also more emotional. When I'm in Dolfinarium Harderwijk with my children, I suddenly start crying like mad. That never goes away completely. I have been dead. How important is that life? Of course, you have to keep bitching about those dots and commas on stage, because if you don't do that anymore, there's no point. It's a double feeling and I often still have it. On the cynical side. Who is interested in drama? That's not important at all, is it? Who goes to theatre anyway? And when they are nitpicking over a few sentences, I sometimes think: what are we doing here! But you shouldn't allow that too much, because then you have to stop."
And so Fred Goessens does not want to think about quitting: ,,I can't do anything else, of course. I can only act. I can't see myself in any other profession. I wouldn't last three weeks there."
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