'Cuts do lead to loss of quality' The great Arts Council interview (1): "Patronage is, of course, bullshit."

Joop Daalmeijer: 'I never authorise. I think that's such nonsense. A journalist should just do a good job.'

Wijbrand Schaap: 'We agree on that then. We write everything in full, but ombecausespstretching about everything quite a bits want to be, I want to hang it on the Cultural exploration. That is the most concrete piece en the most current, and the most cause for discussion.'

Joop Daalmeijer: 'Yes, that's going to happen now, yes.'

Wijbrand Schaap: 'I thought it was also nice because Melle Daamen made an advance from his own vision.'

Joop Daalmeijer: 'Yes, that is completely his own view. That's the nice thing, of course, that we have agreed in the council that everyone is free to write columns, give opinions. Only, if it concerns subjects that are still under discussion in the council, on which we have not yet taken a final position, then you do so in a personal capacity. So that we as a council can say: we distance ourselves from that position of Melle. If it has been discussed in council, and decided by a majority, then there is an opinion. Otherwise not.'

'So Melle did it in a personal capacity. That means we neither agree nor disagree. It is still under discussion. Incidentally, he did co-write the Culture Outlook. We had a writing group of three: Melle, the general secretary and me, and Melle built on this in his own piece.'

Wijbrand Schaap: 'I recognise inderdaad pretty much from Melle Daamen in the reconnaissance.'

Joop Daalmeijer: 'That's right. It is not my opinion. Let's put it this way.'

Wijbrand Schaap: 'Then we will talk about that now. In part, I want to talk about your opinions, and in part, of course, the opinions that Culture Press has signalled from the field about this. I put a lot of things in the margin of the story. I thought it would be nice to work together on close reading to do. Then my first comment is actually: what has been in vogue a bit since Bussemaker, and also with professional association Kunsten '92 and also with the Council, is that positivism, that optimism, that approaching everything from the positive side, while in the field there is often a very different kind of feeling.'

Joop Daalmeijer: 'That depends on where you are in the field. I also get into the field a lot and I notice a lot of anger there. I also notice a lot of people who just lost their jobs or went from a wonderful 100 per cent employment to 50, and they ask: how do we get a normal income? Well. Those are the negative effects.'

Gewauwel

'But on the other hand, you also see institutions that move on and on and have found new ways. Not just financially, because that's all drivel. I mean, the government doesn't give money and you can try to get all that from patronage but that's bullshit. Of course, that doesn't work at all in this country. You do see there, though, that so through a different way of producing - re-purposing things you see quite a lot - so that the costs might be a bit lower. You also see a pressure on the production times there for orchestras as well as for dance, but also for theatre. It all has to go faster to save costs.'

'So people have looked very much at: how can we reduce costs. In the past, cultural entrepreneurship was mainly: how can we bring in that money through marketing, sponsorship? That was all very interesting, of course, but a cultural entrepreneur has an expenditure side as well as an income side. Now, the expenditure side is very much in focus and you should be very careful with that, because the cheaper you make productions, the more you will notice it in the quality. I was at the opening of the Gergiev Festival last Friday. And then you notice that that orchestra really didn't rehearse enough. With Gergiev.'

Wijbrand Schaap: 'This all goes into the interview.'

Joop Daalmeijer: 'That's fine.'

Wijbrand Schaap: 'This review by the chairman of the council.'

Joop Daalmeijer: 'That's all fine. That Gergiev is very good, but sometimes for some works that you don't a view plays rehearse a bit longer. If you cut costs, it is of course a great risk that you reduce quality. This is also expressly mentioned in the Cultural Outlook, that you have to take care of deepening, delaying, so that you have more time to give your productions an absolute top quality. Wherever. In the museums, on the stages.'

'On the other hand, I was at the Vocalist Competition on Sunday. There's an orchestra there, the Symfonie Zuid Nederland, they play oratorios there, they play opera, operetta , they play Bach. That is unbelievable. Those people spent two days there rehearsing but of course that's a lot of pieces you a view can play. But then it still sounds very good, despite the cutbacks that have also hit that orchestra quite hard, of course. Then again, I think that's a very positive thing.'

'Then again, you have to dare to address that, that things are going very well despite these cuts. That it sounds good, that those singers were good, who of course were enormously excited because there was good sound coming from behind them. I liked that very much too. But you also have to dare to say that those cuts can have an impact on quality.'

Wijbrand Schaap: 'I do have an image of that. That scene from Monty Python's Holy Grail, in which a knight has all his limbs chopped off, but is still undefeated in the field. That was also what Bussemaker opened the culture debate in the room with: a lot has gone wrong, but there is no question of austerity, because there is still culture.'

Joop Daalmeijer: 'But I can also agree with that. Make no mistake: in this country, of course, 700 million is still put into culture from the central government. And a lot is also done from the provinces. What is happening now in Brabant with that Brabant Fund, which is great. And a lot is also happening from municipalities. Municipalities are also losing 500 million, but there is still one and a half billion. Those are significant amounts.'

'I was recently in Nordrhein Westfalen. If you look at what they spend, it is much less than in this country. So in this country, we are still happy. Look at the UK, I was visiting my daughter in Edinburgh. When I see what you have to pay for admission there too, but when you see what the government puts into culture there, it's considerably less. Of course, you have the Arts Council, which does put some into it, but it is considerably less. We are still very much on the line in this country.'

Cruyff

'What is lacking, very much so, is of course that patronage. What is very much lacking here is that big companies are much less interested in culture than in sport. I once said to a big boss of a big institution: what an insurance company puts into Ajax, that's twelve million a year. You have the Concertgebouw Orchestra for that. If you put that in there, you'd have the best orchestra in the world, known all over the world, with no fuss because Cruyff doesn't play there.'

'Then you really have something qualitatively very big, and for you as an insurance company: your customers are also in the room. Especially the people who are very heavily insured. Why don't you look at that cultural sector a bit more. No, everything is focused on and cycling, and football. Look at that sector too. In the Netherlands this is now turning very slowly. Rabo is turning a bit, at big banks people are also looking a bit more at art and culture. Fortunately. That's a wonderful sector to sponsor.'

Next time: arts education: "You have to go to pedagogical academies first, because the people sitting there now really don't know a thing. Not only can't they do maths, they can't sing either. That's where that training has to happen. But that is a very long process."

Joop Daalmeijer Marathon (2): 'So that caution is not always necessary.'