Joop Daalmeijer Marathon (5) "All balls on Amsterdam", I'm not into that at all.

Wijbrand Schaap: 'Now on the role of cities. One of the reactions on our site is about the role of the randstad in cultural policy. Melle Daamen puts the primacy in the randstad, and goes further than the Council in this.'

Joop Daalmeijer: 'The council has no position yet.'

Wijbrand Schaap: 'But there is something in the Culture Outlook. Cities are at the heart of cultural life.'

Joop Daalmeijer: 'That is the position, yes.'

Wijbrand Schaap: "That is also true. And it is true that a city is always a cultural engine for its surroundings. But often the countryside is also a source of talent. Amateur societies, brass bands. I call 'The New Wehls Theatre', a great association working at a high level.'

Joop Daalmeijer: 'Diepenheim is another such example.'

Wijbrand Schaap: 'Diepenheim is of course extreme. My question now is: is the town the place where all those rural people should go for culture, or does the town also have a responsibility towards the countryside?'

Joop Daalmeijer: 'For that, you have to separate two things. Cultural participation is not focused on just the cities. It's really for outside the cities as well. There you do it yourself, and it's nice there too. If you look at professional arts practice: you have to be realistic in that. The conglomerations around cities are important. I'm certainly not just talking about Amsterdam. 'All balls on Amsterdam', I'm not into that at all.'

'Of course the Rijksmuseum is in Amsterdam. You can hardly move that to Putten. And of course the Royal Concertgebouw Orchestra is in Amsterdam. You shouldn't put that in East Groningen. It has an audience there, it also has a cost. But I don't think you can say to people living in Arnhem: just go to Amsterdam to listen to classical music. Because classical music needs all the breadth. So if you look at urban agglomerations, I would say, "Yes, focus on cities, but focus on cities not only in the Randstad, but everywhere. Leeuwarden matters, Groningen matters, Eindhoven matters.'

'We were in Den Bosch this weekend. A lot happened there. You can't take that away and say, "Just do that in the Randstad." Nonsense. So I think the Council will never take such a Randstad position. On the contrary. The council will say, "Spread it out." But that doesn't mean that you have to have everything in all municipalities. That you have to have opera, and classical music, and theatre, and experimental theatre.'

Youth theatre perhaps. Because then you immediately come back to cultural education; you have to be able to get acquainted with that sector. That is also what we will write in our Agenda Culture Policy: that we are looking at post-academic training in particular, and not only in the Randstad. That we look at cultural education. That we look at presentation institutions and not only in the periphery, because as an artist you also have to be able to show something in Groningen. But it also applies to youth theatre. That that is very well distributed.'

Wijbrand Schaap: 'I used to write about that in the newspaper: aldermen and theatres. There are a lot of ambitious aldermen in a lot of small and medium-sized municipalities...'

Joop Daalmeijer: 'Those build themselves silly.'

Wijbrand Schaap: '... And I'm not talking about The Hague or Utrecht, but Denekamp, so to speak. There, gigantic, integrated theatre/municipal hall/sports schools are being built. With that, those aldermen create a big problem, because audiences there often sit in empty halls because there was no money for programming. We then come to Brabant for a moment: Etten-Leur, Breda, Roosendaal, Bergen op Zoom, Oosterhout. In a radius of about ten kilometres, there are five large capacity theatres. All of which want Toneelgroep Amsterdam, and that one successful musical. And also the Zuidelijk Toneel.'

Joop Daalmeijer: 'That's the discussion around the corner here too, of course, with the Spuiforum. What is available for programming here, what is available for bricks? Take that wonderful thing that has just been put up in Utrecht now. Of course, that was conceived at a time when the horizon was much further away than it is now. So there they have now found a way to fill it up. The municipality takes care of the whole operation, they don't have to pay anything to that. So they can easily manage their exploitation, with pop and with classical. But there are also many municipalities, which then also charge the hall rent. Then you are nowhere.'

'You should see if you shouldn't say: you have centre functions for that. Then Breda is the place for the National Theatre or for Amsterdam. They don't have to go to Roosendaal. And then you have to see from Roosendaal how to get there. That is sometimes complicated in the province, because public transport is not always that good in the evening. We were in Enschede last week, at the National, sorry Nederlandse Reisopera, then you can't get back to the Randstad by train. And the same is true vice versa. If those people come here to Amsterdam, they never come back to Enschede either. So you have to make sure the infrastructure is well organised. But don't just build everywhere, and for a lot of money.'

'In France, every president puts something down. So do some local councillors. And whether that is wise.'

Wijbrand Schaap: 'Can the Council do anything about that?'

Joop Daalmeijer: 'We can say quite a bit about that in our Cultural Policy Agenda. That will perhaps still come because we have also pointed to those cities. Focus not only on the Randstad, but also on the cities. If you see what's in Enschede: that's a beautiful centre with music, theatre, opera everything. Then you don't need to build anything else there in the area.'

Wijbrand Schaap: 'Hengelo and Almelo not too?'

Joop Daalmeijer: 'Why would you do that? They have buildings, you shouldn't demolish them anyway, that's a waste too. But I think: that centre there, they built that incredibly well. Now you have to make sure that doesn't get skimmed in the neighbourhood.'

'But we are also not in favour of travel commitment at all costs. Just as you cannot say to the Concertgebouw Orchestra that they should do more education, because they can do other things better. Other orchestras can do the education. In Amsterdam, the NedPho also does that wonderfully. Then you shouldn't say to the Concertgebouw Orchestra: you also have the obligation to perform 20 times outside the Randstad. A: aren't there any venues for that, and B: how do you finance that, because an orchestra like that also has its costs, of course'.

Wijbrand Schaap: "I myself am a great advocate of 'Hostmanship'. House and player must be one. The German system, but without its unwieldiness. Munich has a fantastic climate, but get twenty kilometres outside Munich, and there is nothing left. Bavaria has nothing, Munich has everything.'

Joop Daalmeijer: 'And a lot of money. But that is very different in NordRhein Westfalen, where every town has pretty much an opera.'

Wijbrand Schaap: 'But isn't an intimate connection between performer and building the salvation for the connection with the audience?'

Joop Daalmeijer: 'I also saw that in Germany. I spoke to Johan Simons about that. That wild make something like this in Rotterdam, of course. At the 'Kist van Quist' that stands there on Schouwburgplein. The Ro Theatre in it, Wunderbaum in it, Conny Janssen Danst in it, and that becomes one organisation. With that, you share the overhead. Back office, of course, never involves much money: 4% of your budget is in your back office, but still: then you keep more, and then you also get an institution that lives from all sides. That's not just music, or just theatre, but everything is in it. Wunderbaum of course makes very different things from Ro theatre, and then you get something big with Conny Jansen, or another company, Scapino, put them there as well.'

Wijbrand Schaap: 'NTGent had to be there too, and Hamburg.'

Joop Daalmeijer: 'But that was for that international company floating up there. Which I think is a wonderful idea, by the way. If you put three port cities together: of course you can build a very nice company on that. Nowadays, you see much more theatre in the original language. That goes very well, thanks to those surtitles. With opera too, I don't always understand it, but the surtitles help. In theatre, it works just as well. So if you could build a nice international company based in Rotterdam... I think Rotterdam would be very interested in that, because they really want to position themselves internationally.

'Johan Simons is a great advocate of putting a company and a venue together and making it one organisation. Also in management, also financially. He doesn't think from the financial side, which is what I do. He looks from the artistic side. I think there is a lot to be said for that. And maybe that could become a very nice example in Rotterdam, if that could arise there.'

Wijbrand Schaap: 'But Rotterdam, of course, has a pretty big divide between the average educational level of the city and the allure that theatre companies seek there. Cassiers was of course a good example of wonderful art, but it wasn't really for Mien from Katendrecht.'

Joop Daalmeijer: (with Rotterdam accent) 'No, it didn't come there at all.'

Wijbrand Schaap: 'Alize Zandwijk was more successful in finding a connection with the residents.'

Joop Daalmeijer: 'But that also goes away again. But again: if you're in favour of Rotterdam doing something like this, that doesn't mean they should then just focus on great general taste. That would be wrong.'

Wijbrand Schaap: 'But you need local embedding.'

Joop Daalmeijer: If you look at Conny Jansen Danst: I don't know if you've ever been there, which performed at the Submarine Wharf. That was a great show. That sold out all the nights. And then when you listen around you, it's all flat Rotterdam. (Rotterdam accent:) No one from The Hague sits there. "That's ours, don't touch that, Connie Jansen". They could have sold out ten more nights, but they don't have the means to do so. Because in the Performing Arts Fund, there's just no money for that. If that would be in a bed, giving it some financial muscle: that would be great.'

'And then you make something very Rotterdam. And then Johan Simons and his international company can go up there hover. Then Rotterdammers are proud of that. Someone said the other day about the Rotterdam Philharmonic: "That hall is full when there is a chef in front of it that Rotterdammers like. Whatever they play. It doesn't matter. So if Jaap van Zweden is there, the hall is full. And he can play contemporary music. Which I don't think they like very much there. With Gergiev now, the hall is full. Because Gergiev is from Rotterdam. That's a remarkable thing to observe.'

Wijbrand Schaap: 'There was also a complaint from the youth field. Eric de Vroedt was mentioned as Alize's successor. But now it's Theu Boermans, Ivo van Hove and Johan Simons calling the shots again.'

Joop Daalmeijer: 'He needs to get in there first, heh.'

Wijbrand Schaap: 'Ok, but speaking of talent development: wouldn't it be time to give that generation, which is now well into its forties, a place in that mill of companies?'

Joop Daalmeijer: 'But if that means you can't use someone like Johan Simons anymore, with such a huge talent, such an international appeal and such a power to get actors to do what they do, I would think that's a shame. Because on another side, that gives people a chance who are on stage. That man knows how to inspire them so much, that's incredible. He did that in Munich. In Ghent. Young people too.'

'On the other hand, I do agree with you that that is difficult for other great directors who are then 20 years younger, or 25 years younger, Simons is I think 68, huh?'

Wijbrand Schaap: 'By the time Alize quits, he will be 71. So, yes.'

Joop Daalmeijer: 'You have to put that one in front of an orchestra. Abbado wasn't twenty anymore either, but what that man got out of that orchestra was unbelievable. And Jaap van Zweden is much younger, and he has that too, so you have to find that good mix. But if this is Simons' last chance to make something big, I wouldn't push him aside to give someone younger a chance. If it becomes nothing, then other chances. And with new people. But you shouldn't rule them out. Neither can you.'

Joop Daalmeijer Marathon (6): 'The Rijksakademie will go to pieces if we don't intervene'