With Glorious Bodies, Piet van Dycke celebrates the survivability of elderly acrobats #Circolo

Cultural Press

You are acrobats, you perform. I just watched a bit of your performance. I found it very scary. I see a three-storey apartment building and someone is sitting on the top floor without safety ropes. It's different to see acrobats up close like that than in a circus with lights. It's almost scarier than when you see it in a big show where everyone is happy and going for you. You have been doing acrobatics for 40 years. It's physically challenging. Is it a sport?

Winfried

Well, actually, it is an art because sport is defined as competition. Competition. Even chess is a sport, but dance is not a sport. So acrobatics is more like dance. There is no competition. It is not about who is the best. It is also very difficult to compare people, because some are big and strong and at the base of a pyramid trick, and some are small and fly. Which one is better? You can't compare. You can't say, okay, this is harder. So it's more about working together and trying to create something worth watching.

Cultural Press

Yes. So you all started in the last century. So 1980, 1984. I mean, as far as I know from myself, acrobatics became kind of popular at that time.

Det

I was suddenly in a theatre group where I was taught acrobatics for a week. And it was something I thought was really great and I had never heard of it and I didn't know it existed. So I was really interested. And when I got the chance to take a course and learn acrobatics, I immediately took it. That's how I started.

Cultural Press

Thorsten, where and why did you start?

Thorsten

I saw people doing acrobatics on the grass. In Germany, in the city where I was living at the time. And as a kid I did a bit of gymnastics, so I had a little background, so I knew how to do a handstand. And suddenly I saw people climbing on each other and I said, wow. And then I took a course in my city. And then I immediately got my passion. And then I was doing it two, three, four times a week, trying to attract every friend to the grass.

Cultural Press

You are a big man. There are certain roles in acrobatics. Were you always the baseman, the guy who carried everyone else? Or did you change roles during your career?

Thorsten

Yes, that's quite funny. When I was 30, I went to circus school in Berlin and then I found a female partner in the measure of debt. And I thought, yes, let's work with her. But we became a couple and we collapsed. And so I was looking for a new partner and I also had a I don't care about a woman or a man, but I was thinking about that size and suddenly by chance I got a partner from my size. We discovered each other in free training and we trained together and it worked really well. And then I did it with him for more than 10 years and there we switched roles. And this was both very nice and very unexpected for me.

Cultural Press

Butr he is not here now.

Thorsten

He is too young.

Cultural Press

This can happen, someone of 40.

Det

But it does indeed depend on both your partner and your size. It is also true that both Paul and Johannes are a bit in-between sizes. So they can both do it. They can be underman, but they can also fly and they can also be the in-between size, as you saw in the three-high. And also because he had a partner who was about the same size. You can also try the other role, and that's also for the girls or lighter people.

Cultural Press

Yes. So you're saying it's not a sport, it's an art. But it's a very special art. I mean, it's very physical. I know dancers who have to stop at 35 because all their parts are worn out. How is it with you? You're over 60, we can say that now because that's also the subject of the show. How do you deal with that, because it's very physical. I mean, how do you stay at a level that is satisfying for you?

Winfried

I think that's a big difference between acrobatics and dance in the sense that dance was always the big guys lifting the little girls. In acrobatics, you work together and that working together makes it lighter. So when Paul jumps, for example, I support him and give him a swing, but I don't do the work alone. We do it together. So I think the cooperation between the partners is very important and makes it lighter.

Johannes

Yes. I also think the big difference between acrobatics and dance is that for a very long time, dance was dominated by choreographers who came up with a piece and then expected dancers to perform it. For acrobats, because they are also different, it is a completely different style. Acrobats can do certain things and then a choreographer has to use those things. So while a dancer of 35 can no longer do some things, an acrobat has the same problem. At a certain age, you can no longer do what you could do at 35 or 40, but that is not important because you show what you can do. And this is what we use in our shows, in our performances. And what our choreographer uses now, he uses the things we can do. He doesn't imagine like, okay, you have to do a somersault and you have to throw it, because that wouldn't be possible. He has to look at what you can do as a combination, okay, then we'll do this. So you start with what is possible instead of having an idea and then looking for someone to make it possible. And I think this is also why we can still perform at that age. And I actually think it's the same for dancers. Old dancers too can perform and I know shows where they did that if you let them do the things they can do and they do it fantastically. Everyone of these dancers still has capabilities that a normal person doesn't have. It's just not all-round.

Det

I agree with you. I think it's just not appreciated what older dancers can still do. Of course you can't jump as high anymore. We can't do the most beautiful handstands or other things we used to be able to do. But yes, if you only want to see that, there would be no show, there would be no show with us. But if you want to work with what people can still do, you can also make a beautiful show with dancers who are wise and experienced. And I really agree with that. So I think it's underused, all the capacities that are still there in older people who have very high physical abilities.

Cultural Press

You are all professional acrobats. Do you still make a living doing that? 

Thorsten

No, I spend eight hours a day at the computer.

Cultural Press

That's why you can be a heavy man. So it must also be a very old computer, because you have strong arms.

Johannes

It is a very stable computer.

Cultural Press

But what does a professional acrobat career look like for you? Is your name already known? Astrid. What is a career in acrobatics at 60?

Det

A career. What does that look like? She is young, not yet 60, that is.

Cultural Press

But if you're making money in acrobatics and you're also not 20 anymore, we can admit it. What does your working day look like as an acrobat?

Astrid

Now I sleep as long as I can. I don't train every day. And I do a lot of things for myself so I can train enough when we have rehearsals and I hope I am fit enough for that with a relaxed body and a strong body.

Det

But you still perform, right?

Astrid

Yes.

Cultural Press

How many gigs are there per year?

Astrid

Otherwise in Corona time, in summer, often in winter? No, we don't perform. We perform in the streets and at festivals, but not in winter.

Cultural Press

Is this the same for you?

Johannes

No. For me, at one point we were looking for training space, so we came in contact with youth circus and that was a very good combination. So we started giving classes and here, I mean, this is actually a youth circus that I found with my ex-partner. It's kind of a mix between giving classes to adults and children and performing. And it varies over the years what you do more or less, depending on obviously in the days of Corona there were almost no performances and now it becomes more and I try to adapt to that and take what I get. It's like any other business you run, sometimes you get more things in one direction and something in another. So you go with the flow. I've worked in theatre shows, I've worked in street theatres, I've worked for corporate parties. It depends on the years if it changes and every time you get a show, you work with this show for a few years and in the meantime you start other shows.

Astrid

The same applies to me. So I also work as a circus teacher. And before we started rehearsals for Glorious Bodies, I worked as a speech therapist. That is my profession.

Cultural Press

So you are not a full-time professional acrobat?

Det

No, not at all. It's been me since I think in 1987. I also started teaching, which I still do. I also started teaching, which I still do, and I've since had an adult school in Amsterdam and that's much more work than my performances. I did perform in children's dance, with children's dance performances, but I stopped doing that 25 years ago. So the other performances, that was not so often that I did acrobatic performances. So it was also a question for me, am I going to be on stage? Yes, okay, let's see if this is fun. But at the same time, I'm a translator and a Norwegian teacher, so that's a completely different profession.

Cultural Press

I was wondering if the reputation of acrobatics has changed in the 40 years you've been doing it? What was it like when you started and what is it like now?

Johannes

I think the reputation of acrobatics has changed a lot, because in the beginning, in the 80s, it seemed like circus was nothing. And now slowly, I think, thanks to people like us, like a friend of mine, a colleague I performed with for years, he started the Circus School in Rotterdam. Another colleague of mine was involved in starting Tilburg. So I think our generation started to bring the circus techniques back to the appreciation they had in the 1940s or 1950s. Because in the meantime, like in the '60s, when television came up, suddenly everything that didn't work with state money went kaput, every show, every cabaret, nobody went there anymore. And now it's making a comeback, because what you experience now, like seeing it live, you make the same step, of seeing something on the screen or on video or whatever, that's nothing compared to seeing it happen in real life, like two, three metres in front of you. Suddenly you think, oh, shit, they might fall now.

Det

But on the other hand, a lot of people too, a lot of acrobats too, it's not just very Dutch anymore. It's very much spread throughout Europe and the United States. And they also learn a lot from Facebook and from the things they see. They can just watch and try to see how it goes and then they can also learn from it and that's something we never had when we were young, so we needed teachers. So you now have different, how do you say, sources for learning.

Paul

Yes, but still I think it works better for most acrobats with teachers if they just watch on video and try to copy what they see. Because all those fine techniques we use, you generally don't see that on video.

Winfried

More printing here, more printing here. It's a matter of millimetres and attention. And you can't see that on a video.

Cultural Press

No. It is also about trust, but also about confidence. This is quite unique for something that happens in this day and age. I mean, it's an art form based on trust. Beforehand, you said to me, 'we talk a lot'. We talk more than we move. That's right, we are more talkative than others.

Det

Yes, but those in the west talk a lot more than those in the north.

Johannes

I don't think so. But still, if you do a more difficult trick. You have to check first, okay, we'll try this trick. We do it this way. Probably it goes wrong because we do it the first time or the second time. How do we survive? Who catches her? Who catches me? How do we do it? Which way can it go? So you have to talk a lot to survive. You have to communicate a lot. And at some point it gets faster. But of course, we as a group have known each other for a long time, but the two of us work together regularly. But other than that, they are not really working partners. Working partners. So we have to talk more than we would in normal training. When we train together, just for us, we talk much less because we know how to get down in every trick.

Winfried

Exactly. Because, for example, we had the Como brothers as instructors.

Cultural Press

The Como brothers were famous.

Winfried

They were the people who really got acrobatics going. Away from the circus, into the schools. And so we know the style, so we don't have to talk much. For example, I was once in Italy and there was a circus there, there were Chinese people, they had the same style. And I don't speak Chinese at all, but I had someone do a handstand on me. So you don't need the language at all with acrobats if you know the style.

Paul

But this depends a bit on what you are doing. If you hand yourself a handstand more often and the other person bases it more often, then you can do it immediately. But if you're doing a more complex trick, you might need a bit more communication before you do it.

Winfried

Yes, but it's quite unique that you don't need the language.

Paul

Yes, that's true. For certain level things. That's absolutely true.

Johannes

It's like dancing.

Det

Yes. It is also a kind of physical language. You also have to feel how you walk up. You feel each other's hands, you feel each other's rhythm, you feel where you get support. All these things are actually not verbal.

Cultural Press

But this art also comes with a certain amount of risk. You have a video with you of a fall you took from a great height and you are still suffering from shoulder pain. I know old actors who, as their careers lengthen, become more afraid of losing their lines, of losing their words. What is it like for you performers in a very physical sport? Does it get scarier?

Winfried

Well, let's just say I get a little worried sometimes. Can I do this for, let's say, two years? Because we have gigs in 2025. And sometimes when I feel my shoulder a bit, can I still do it? Sometimes you worry a bit about that. Yes, I admit that. But I also know that when you stop, you know you can't do it anymore. You have to carry on caring that you can carry on. For example, we had a rehearsal a few weeks ago. Five of the bodies here had something somewhere, a heel or a shoulder or a back. And we changed little things in the performance and it works. So that's quite unique, I think.

Det

Yes. But I do feel more vulnerable than I did 20 years ago. Not just being afraid of falling or something, but also knowing that my body is like an old bicycle that occasionally plays music and just wants to stop or has a flat tyre or something. And that's really more often than before. And you never know if the bike will still be up and running with this kind of thing or if you'll have to deal with it. And that's something I used to always think, okay, it's an injury, it'll go away after the summer. And now I think, is it just an injury or do I have to live with it? And that's different from before.

Paul

At the same time, I feel it is surprising what your body can still do. As you talked about the fall. I showed you the video, I thought, okay, it might be done now, but it's been about a year and I'm still in this show, I'm still doing it like this. The body takes longer to recover. But yeah, I'm still curious to see how well it works in the end.

Det

But he is special.

Johannes

We are all special. Worked so hard on his recovery that to my mind, his handstands now go better and straighter than before.

Cultural Press

But while we're on the subject, there may also be older people listening in on this podcast. But I can say that you all look great.

Det

Thank you.

Winfried

How much did we pay him?

Cultural Press

I try my best not to get too fat at 60, then things get messy. Sloppy things. I saw that. You have to watch what you eat, what you drink, what you exercise. Is your lifestyle something seniors and peers should recommend?

Paul

Move. I would say move. Keep moving.

Det

Acrobatics.

Paul

It doesn't have to be acrobatics, but.

Det

Keep moving and don't overeat.

Winfried

For some people, that's not true, because there are two of us, who can cram as much food as they can cram in and they don't gain weight, which is really unfair.

Det

Yes, we have two here.

Johannes

And other than that, if you like to exercise, if you have something you really like to do, you have to do it and not think, oh, is it smart to do that? No, you should just do it and take good care of yourself, but keep doing it. And the funny thing is that even in this day and age, you can make progress with things you try new if you just build it up slowly and just go with the flow.

Cultural Press

Could someone inspired by this start acrobatics at this age?

Paul

Yes, it is possible. I know when I was at the Como Brothers classes, there was a guy, he started around age 60, 62 or so.

Det

He was a dancer.

Paul

He was a dancer. So he already had body awareness. Yet, at 60, he started doing acrobatics and he was pretty good.

Det

Yes. I also have some students who are over 60, but they didn't start when they were 60. But I also had two who were older than me. That was the first time. And one was 72 and the other was 69 or something like that. And they also learnt it and it's just that you have to set yourself different goals. Goals or yes. So if you just do it for fun and for the fun of working together and getting something done and succeeding in that, that's so much fun. So you can play, you don't have to be the best. And if you have that in your mind, you can have a lot of fun. Even when you start later, even when you're old, I think. Yes.

Cultural Press

So when Piet Van Dycke asked you, did you already know Van Dijcke?

Paul

I did not know him.

Cultural Press

How did he get to know you?

Johannes

Actually, he knew my son. My son is an acrobat/dancer and they knew each other. And at one point Pete told Kim that he wanted to do a circus performance with older people and that he had already found two who could stand on each other's shoulders. And then my son said, "Well, I know some people for you. And then he paired him with us and that was a good connection. It was very inspiring, I think, for him and for us.

Cultural Press

He is not here now, but has his plan changed because of you?

Det

Yes.

Cultural Press

Did he think of something very old-school and did you surprise him?

Det

He said he wanted to make a show about bodies getting older. So more about a process of how do you deal with getting older? And then in this case with acrobats. But when we worked with him, he changed his mind because he just thought: those people can do a lot and they are a lot of fun to see what they can do. So I'm not going to talk about the process of what you can do less of or so, but what is still very much alive and - what he also mentioned - is archived in our bodies. And I think that's very nicely put. It's like it's in our body and we can do it with our eyes closed or something.

Johannes

I also think his change in the beginning was that he was thinking more about making a show about how to deal with a body that can do less, that can't do as well anymore. And at some point he realised that we could probably do a lot more than everyone in the audience and he focused his intention more on that. If you do something you love and you work with people you like and you do the things you love, you can do much, much more at, actually, any age than anyone suspects. The moment, I would say, because we did a lot of small gigs, just for volunteers, to see how they react and what they like. And they were all inspired and amazed at the things we could do at the age we are now.

Cultural Press

Yes, I only saw your rehearsal. I also found it very inspiring, I thought a bit, okay, so I can't do all this. I mean, I feel pretty fit, but I don't think I can carry two people and swing them around and make them jump up and down and then on the floor. I mean, was it inspiring for yourself as well? You didn't expect to do a two-year tour, an international tour with Pieter van Dycke four years ago, I think.

Paul

No.

Johannes

At that time, when he asked me, we were just coming out of the Corona era and I really doubted whether I would be able to restart everything because at that time, all the festivals, nothing was allowed, nothing could. I hadn't trained for far too long because I wasn't allowed to work with people, I wasn't allowed to train with people, I wasn't even allowed to give lessons for a long time, which reduces you to, I don't know, pushing up in your living room somewhere. And that was really tough. So physically and physically I collapsed quite a lot during that time. And now, because of the show, I was inspired and had a reason to train and work out and try to make a little comeback physically after that time when I was doing so much less. And I'm still not at the point I was five or six years ago. So for me it was great that I was asked and it was very inspiring to now work with a group of people that I really like and have fun and make a really fun show.

Winfried

Yes, for me it's also very inspiring, especially because I've made shows with different people. But now I have a choreographer, so I get directed and that's so much fun. And also in a big group, six people, very stubborn people, all of them. And it's very interesting that what you do together is so intense. We live like a family sometimes. And that has surprised me the most, that when I have a weekend off, I'm still in my head doing some tricks or things. And it has surprised me how involved I am in this. It's really great and I find it very inspiring and I hope we can do this for at least a few more years.

Johannes

Four more years.

Winfried

Yes, that would be nice.

Cultural Press

Another four years?

Johannes

I'm 63 doing four more years of this show. I'm done with it.

Cultural Press

You can finally start fishing.

Thorsten

Twelve years. Twelve years.

Winfried

Det, you will have to work hard. Another 12 years.

Det

No.

Winfried

For Thorsten.

Paul

This is going a bit too far.

Det

Yes.

Cultural Press

So with all these wonderful bodies, you will be on tour for two or three years.

Det

We don't know yet.

Paul

It now looks like it will be two years.

Cultural Press

Where are you going?

Det

I think not, so far we only have performances until the summer. But of course no one has seen the performance yet. So all the performances that have sold are because of Pete's reputation, I think. And also a bit of what people have heard about it, that it was an interesting theme. And also some people have seen parts of it or seen the trailer or I don't know. But now people come to see it or theatres and festivals. And then, of course, it's more common that they plan it for the year after. So Pete was already aware of our options for 24, 25, but we don't know yet. There is now one possibility in Germany, so that's the first one outside the Netherlands and Belgium. But of course we also want to go to Barcelona, right?

Cultural Press

After the Tilburg Circolo festival, your career could take a leap. Need to quit your job?

Winfried

Well, I am available.

Paul

Me too.

Johannes

And me.

Cultural Press

What about you, Thorsten? You were still lifting computers.

Thorsten

I reduced my track. I had a job of 80% and I had to reduce it to 50% to join the project. And I was lucky that my brother, for whom I work, said yes. Okay. I'm not so happy about that, but fine, go. I want you to be happy when you are happy. I was lucky with that.

Cultural Press

You might have an international career in a year's time.

Paul

Yes, that would be nice.

Cultural Press

Yes. Any plans for the next show?

Det

What did you say?

Winfried

Let's start with this one first.

Cultural Press

Yes.

Det

I think this will be my last show then. I am already retired. After that, I might definitely do it.

Cultural Press

Okay, thank you very much for this nice conversation. I'm very much looking forward to the show. I mean, I've only seen the rehearsal now and I've seen some very, I would say scary things.

Johannes

It's not that scary. You could try some.

Cultural Press

Yes, I am afraid of heights, so standing on someone's shoulder is not for me.

Paul

And you can also always stay on the ground as an underman.